I think Israel is far from perfect, but they live with neighbors who do wish them harm, many to the extent of truly committing genocide, of the final solution type, upon them. They have used aid and assistance to build a compatible flourishing modern economy, and a democracy that allows for a plurality of views and equal rights for citiz…
I think Israel is far from perfect, but they live with neighbors who do wish them harm, many to the extent of truly committing genocide, of the final solution type, upon them. They have used aid and assistance to build a compatible flourishing modern economy, and a democracy that allows for a plurality of views and equal rights for citizens of every race and religion. Meanwhile, Palestinians have accepted billions in aid and used it to educate their children to make bombs and missiles to kill and provoke their neighbors. Their grievance over loss of their land and homes is understandable, but that war is lost; it was, a long time ago. It's time to accept reality and a historically unprecedented amount of aid, and build a new country. But the influence of radical Islam, which is a greater danger by far than radical Zionism, won't tolerate this. All these liberals bleating about Israel would I guarantee much rather live in Israel than under a Sharia state (unless they are happy to submit to Islam).
Christopher nailed this, it really is (apart from an element of anti-Zionism or Jew hatred on the right) about anti Western, anti oppressor viewpoint of the modern Left.
Israel has made mistakes and done horrible things in its war against the Arabs who left in 1948, and their allies. But their opponents have attacked them with armies, missiles, and terror, with stated aims including their complete eradication. I don't think it's hard to choose a side here. And the choice you make reveals a lot. You're either pro the civilization that has fostered the tolerance you probably love over 400 years, and allows you to speak against it, or pro those that won't and don't.
I mean to say Palestinaians are getting lots of aid is fine if you point out that Israel is receiving FAR more aid than they are.
Yes it's easy to tell someone else to accept the loss of their homes and to accept it with tranquility, as well as deaths of loved ones and their mistreatment. If you were in that situation you would not do so.
There is an element of Jew hatred, but imo that is VASTLY overstated. Just as the left tries to frame so many things as racist, the right often tries to paint many things as anti-semitic.
Of course they'd rather live in Israel but that's irrelevant here. A nation with a high standard of living and rule of law can still commit atrocities.
And again you're talking about what Hamas does but Israel reportedly has an IDF base built under a mall in Tel Aviv. Also if Hamas fired rockets to kill an IDF commander and took out an entire apartment complex to get him, I don't think you'd be defending that action.
I did suggest they were both beneficiaries of foreign aid. Israel does indeed receive billions in aid per year, maybe 4 billion? (almost all in military assistance), Wyest Bank and Gaza combined receive at least 2.5 billion in general by humanitarian assistance.
Many defeated people have moved on and made new lives without waging wars of retribution. You're correct in suggesting I may not be so magnanimous as to do this myself, but in general I think it's the best response. Most losers don't receive the aid to allow them to retaliate; retaliation is historically usually suicidal.
I admitted Israel has done wrong but I think it's only fair to about their existence has been under extreme duress, under constant threat of literal annihilation. The same cannot be said of organized Palestinian violent actions. Ditto, how they treat their own citizens. It speaks something of the quality of their culture and society. Horrible deeds are committed by all cultures with sufficient power, the question is how much, how often, and how they respond when it happens. You can't say Israel and Hamas are equal because they both have committed atrocities. I would suggest Israel has committed far less, relative to opportunity, than the reverse.
You wrote: "Their grievance over loss of their land and homes is understandable, but that war is lost; it was, a long time ago."
Jews literally spent almost 2,000 years clinging to their grievances over their loss of their land and homes in Israel. Their wars with Rome were lost a long time ago, too. I'm not taking a side on this war, but the idea Jews would tell Palestinians they need to give up and the war is lost seems like "the pot calling the kettle black".
Jews never stopped living in Israel. They just stopped ruling it. And, their return to power is now history. You didn't obtain peace by removing them from where they are now.
Why would Jews in Israel think they could obtain peace by removing non-Jewish people who have lived in a place but at the same time insist that removing Jews from a place they have lived will never result in peace?
It seems contradictory.
Removing Jews will never result in peace.
But removing non-Jews will result in peace.
Is the theory that Jews are much more violent and unwilling to make peace unless they get their way while non-Jews are more agreeable and willing to settle to make peace?
I think Israel is far from perfect, but they live with neighbors who do wish them harm, many to the extent of truly committing genocide, of the final solution type, upon them. They have used aid and assistance to build a compatible flourishing modern economy, and a democracy that allows for a plurality of views and equal rights for citizens of every race and religion. Meanwhile, Palestinians have accepted billions in aid and used it to educate their children to make bombs and missiles to kill and provoke their neighbors. Their grievance over loss of their land and homes is understandable, but that war is lost; it was, a long time ago. It's time to accept reality and a historically unprecedented amount of aid, and build a new country. But the influence of radical Islam, which is a greater danger by far than radical Zionism, won't tolerate this. All these liberals bleating about Israel would I guarantee much rather live in Israel than under a Sharia state (unless they are happy to submit to Islam).
Christopher nailed this, it really is (apart from an element of anti-Zionism or Jew hatred on the right) about anti Western, anti oppressor viewpoint of the modern Left.
Israel has made mistakes and done horrible things in its war against the Arabs who left in 1948, and their allies. But their opponents have attacked them with armies, missiles, and terror, with stated aims including their complete eradication. I don't think it's hard to choose a side here. And the choice you make reveals a lot. You're either pro the civilization that has fostered the tolerance you probably love over 400 years, and allows you to speak against it, or pro those that won't and don't.
I mean to say Palestinaians are getting lots of aid is fine if you point out that Israel is receiving FAR more aid than they are.
Yes it's easy to tell someone else to accept the loss of their homes and to accept it with tranquility, as well as deaths of loved ones and their mistreatment. If you were in that situation you would not do so.
There is an element of Jew hatred, but imo that is VASTLY overstated. Just as the left tries to frame so many things as racist, the right often tries to paint many things as anti-semitic.
Of course they'd rather live in Israel but that's irrelevant here. A nation with a high standard of living and rule of law can still commit atrocities.
And again you're talking about what Hamas does but Israel reportedly has an IDF base built under a mall in Tel Aviv. Also if Hamas fired rockets to kill an IDF commander and took out an entire apartment complex to get him, I don't think you'd be defending that action.
I did suggest they were both beneficiaries of foreign aid. Israel does indeed receive billions in aid per year, maybe 4 billion? (almost all in military assistance), Wyest Bank and Gaza combined receive at least 2.5 billion in general by humanitarian assistance.
Many defeated people have moved on and made new lives without waging wars of retribution. You're correct in suggesting I may not be so magnanimous as to do this myself, but in general I think it's the best response. Most losers don't receive the aid to allow them to retaliate; retaliation is historically usually suicidal.
I admitted Israel has done wrong but I think it's only fair to about their existence has been under extreme duress, under constant threat of literal annihilation. The same cannot be said of organized Palestinian violent actions. Ditto, how they treat their own citizens. It speaks something of the quality of their culture and society. Horrible deeds are committed by all cultures with sufficient power, the question is how much, how often, and how they respond when it happens. You can't say Israel and Hamas are equal because they both have committed atrocities. I would suggest Israel has committed far less, relative to opportunity, than the reverse.
I'm not saying Hamas isn't terrible, I'm saying there are innocent people living there that should be thought of too.
You wrote: "Their grievance over loss of their land and homes is understandable, but that war is lost; it was, a long time ago."
Jews literally spent almost 2,000 years clinging to their grievances over their loss of their land and homes in Israel. Their wars with Rome were lost a long time ago, too. I'm not taking a side on this war, but the idea Jews would tell Palestinians they need to give up and the war is lost seems like "the pot calling the kettle black".
Jews never stopped living in Israel. They just stopped ruling it. And, their return to power is now history. You didn't obtain peace by removing them from where they are now.
Why would Jews in Israel think they could obtain peace by removing non-Jewish people who have lived in a place but at the same time insist that removing Jews from a place they have lived will never result in peace?
It seems contradictory.
Removing Jews will never result in peace.
But removing non-Jews will result in peace.
Is the theory that Jews are much more violent and unwilling to make peace unless they get their way while non-Jews are more agreeable and willing to settle to make peace?