Do you think to place someone in long-term care/hospital is equivalent to putting them in jail? How "free" is a mentally ill person on the streets? If the case is so severe, what is the alternative? A care home does not have to be institutional in a cruel and creepy way. Same goes for prisons. But when there are those that cannot care fo…
Do you think to place someone in long-term care/hospital is equivalent to putting them in jail? How "free" is a mentally ill person on the streets? If the case is so severe, what is the alternative? A care home does not have to be institutional in a cruel and creepy way. Same goes for prisons. But when there are those that cannot care for themselves and suffer and/or commit heinous crimes, society must deal with it and not ignore it like we have been. And you are likely correct; there is no good treatment currently for schizophrenia. Or maybe there is a way to treat it that we don't know of yet or Big Pharma is hiding.
It is true that "a care home does not have to be institutional in a cruel and creepy way," but, unfortunately, that is an accurate description of many of the closed insane asylums and a fact that lent weight to the arguments for "deinstitutionalization" in the first place.
Charlotte, I think you are being naive here. You seem to think that forced lock-ups in long-term hospitals must be a lovely picnic.
Where do we draw the line? Depression is a mental illness. And yet a majority of adult Americans say they have suffered from this. Do we lock-up high-functioning Autistics> Oops....there goes Elon Musk and many of the geniuses developing our world.
So you think that people can be locked-up simply for the potential of committing a crime? Sounds like Communist countries. Well any human being has that potential. Look at the well brought up and well educated young man from the wealthy family who has just been arrested for murder of the Healthcare Executive.
Saying that Pharma might have a cure for Schizophrenia but they are hiding it is simply not believable.
Well, that was a big leap from my comment about schizophrenics needing long term care to you thinking I am talking about people with depression or autism! I live in a city where I often witness people going through extreme episodes of psychotic breaks on the streets. They are in tatters, flailing about, screaming, cursing, sometimes lunging at passersby -- these are the people I am speaking about, such as Jordan Neely. Not any of the others you oddly include. Schizophrenics deserve a warm place out of the rain or cold, a calm and safe environment, the dignity to bathe and be free from lice, etc, have decent meals and 24/7 care if they need it. What's wrong with that? You want them to continue to live on the street in dehumanizing conditions? I doubt that. And, duh, of course I do not endorse "locking people up for the potential of committing a crime". That's not a well thought out comment.
Big Pharma, by the way, is very unethical in regards to their business model; they are not interested in the least in seeing people well because well people don't need drugs, so it is not so unbelievable that this very powerful industry could and does block research/treatments.
All of my comments are well thought-out, Charlotte. It is you whom I find throwing out any old naive concept. Without considering all of the repercussions of such concepts in reality.
All decent people wish to see everyone warm and comfortable. But hauling them off to a lock-up is not the way to do it. You have a fantasy idea of what locked mental hospitals must be like -- you seem to think they are the Hilton. And that the "hidden" cures for Schizophrenia will be available there (what cures?). Done any reading in the reality of "mental asylums" through the ages? Many of those places descended into horror, not unlike the shelter system has descended into something less than it was meant to be.
Do you deny the possibility of creating and maintaining humanely-run mental hospitals?
The history of mental hospitals and the treatment of the insane is ugly and fraught with error and lent weight to legal arguments for deinstitutionalization, but why let the past define the possible future?
while I agree with you in theory, in reality, Neeley fits the profile of the mentally ill, drug addicted homeless that commit murder by pushing innocent people off subway platforms. and by the way, do you live in NYC? do you depend on the subway? I do. If I saw Neeley on the subway, either impersonating the famous, or ranting to himself I would assess him as threat to my physical safety and well being and would act from there. I would run from the car if I could, but many NYC subway cars are locked, you can't pass through the cars, like the one he was on that fatal day. Otherwise I would move away from him if I could, been followed by the dangerous mentally ill when I've moved away. sometimes you gotta stand and deliver . I would clutch my screwdriver and scream curses at him to drive him away from me to protect myself. Neeley was looking for trouble when he went on the NYC subway begging. There are laws against begging and selling anything on the subway, the platforms, hallways, etc.
I hear you. This is a very sticky situation. I have already agreed that Neely was a criminal, looking at his past actions.
And yes, I have used public transit in various urban centres all of my life. I know it well. I am an average-sized woman, travelling alone, who has had to make quick decisions on what to do in several threatening situations,
So I know both sides of this issue. I sided with Daniel Penny, btw. It is just that we cannot allow the pendulum to swing from one extreme to the opposite extreme, and think we have solved this. There are those who will also manipulate the opposite extreme against the innocent and vulnerable.
I think I share your cynicism about human nature, but I also think the risk of creating new and improved mental hospitals is worth taking, since the status quo is ruining our cities along with other stuff like stupid ideologically-driven and venal mismanagement.
Well, there are places such as Canada with legislation for state euthanasia (called MAID) in which it is taken as a given that you are suicidal and a threat to yourself when you request this. Used to be that people like that were offered help. Now they are killed by the state. So the state becomes the threat. Think about that.
Actually, some of the people requesting state euthanasia have done so because their families guilted them into this, to get rid of the financial burdens of care. Or to collect an early inheritance. So these persons are not even suicidal, really.
This slippery slope is one reason I advocate the sale of the Sarcopod to individuals. You can have one in your garage and enter it whenever you feel the urge to kill yourself. For a reason I can't figure, the company that makes them says, "The Sarco is not and never will be for sale. The plans will be published open source or in The Peaceful Pill eHandbook. The final decision has not yet been made" (https://www.exitinternational.net/sarco/faqs/).
Giving others the power to decide who is or is not a candidate for euthanasia has always had this predictable outcome. Ethically, the problem lies in giving others the agency to do what one ought to do oneself. "Assisted suicide" is a sinister oxymoron for "homicide," justifiable or not.
Evidently, the hypoxia provided by the Sarcopod is done with nitrogen, and one experiences a sort of euphoria before conking out. The garage carbon monoxide route provides a slow death, with much pain and suffering. I've also learned that today's cars produce less CO, so it would take twice as long to croak than if you sat in a garage inhaling the fumes from your '68 Mustang with the original engine.
Strange days, indeed, that have us discussing the problem of state-sponsored homicide ("assisted suicide" my ass).
I'd say that's true in Canadiastan. I think the dickheads-that-be in Oregon have the same policy, or want it anyway--the "freedom" to be killed on demand.
Suicide is cowardly enough, but asking an MD to do it is the nadir of cowardice IMHO.
Oh, a number of the doctors here in Canadastan are quite keen. One of them, in BC, was doing a lot of media interviews a few years ago, boasting of her kill numbers. She was up to 400 at that point, since 2016. And she runs an abortion clinic on the side, invoicing every kill to government. Blows my mind. Apparently she is becoming elderly now, and uses a mobility scooter, but still insists on continuing her killing spree. Dr. Death.
I consider her a Psychopath. Persons of her sort in the medical profession must be in their glory.
That reminds me of the original "Dr. Death," Jack Kevorkian. I seem to recall he had devised a mobile gas chamber that he would drive around and supply death on demand. He ended up in prison for 2nd-degree murder and served 8 years, and while inside he created some grisly, morbid paintings. He was a kind of "Birdman of Alcatraz" in that he was sentimentalized by supporters of homicide-on-demand.
Do you think to place someone in long-term care/hospital is equivalent to putting them in jail? How "free" is a mentally ill person on the streets? If the case is so severe, what is the alternative? A care home does not have to be institutional in a cruel and creepy way. Same goes for prisons. But when there are those that cannot care for themselves and suffer and/or commit heinous crimes, society must deal with it and not ignore it like we have been. And you are likely correct; there is no good treatment currently for schizophrenia. Or maybe there is a way to treat it that we don't know of yet or Big Pharma is hiding.
It is true that "a care home does not have to be institutional in a cruel and creepy way," but, unfortunately, that is an accurate description of many of the closed insane asylums and a fact that lent weight to the arguments for "deinstitutionalization" in the first place.
Charlotte, I think you are being naive here. You seem to think that forced lock-ups in long-term hospitals must be a lovely picnic.
Where do we draw the line? Depression is a mental illness. And yet a majority of adult Americans say they have suffered from this. Do we lock-up high-functioning Autistics> Oops....there goes Elon Musk and many of the geniuses developing our world.
So you think that people can be locked-up simply for the potential of committing a crime? Sounds like Communist countries. Well any human being has that potential. Look at the well brought up and well educated young man from the wealthy family who has just been arrested for murder of the Healthcare Executive.
Saying that Pharma might have a cure for Schizophrenia but they are hiding it is simply not believable.
Well, that was a big leap from my comment about schizophrenics needing long term care to you thinking I am talking about people with depression or autism! I live in a city where I often witness people going through extreme episodes of psychotic breaks on the streets. They are in tatters, flailing about, screaming, cursing, sometimes lunging at passersby -- these are the people I am speaking about, such as Jordan Neely. Not any of the others you oddly include. Schizophrenics deserve a warm place out of the rain or cold, a calm and safe environment, the dignity to bathe and be free from lice, etc, have decent meals and 24/7 care if they need it. What's wrong with that? You want them to continue to live on the street in dehumanizing conditions? I doubt that. And, duh, of course I do not endorse "locking people up for the potential of committing a crime". That's not a well thought out comment.
Big Pharma, by the way, is very unethical in regards to their business model; they are not interested in the least in seeing people well because well people don't need drugs, so it is not so unbelievable that this very powerful industry could and does block research/treatments.
Freddie deBoer, who is himself bipolar, has written a lot about this issue: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/you-call-that-compassion
All of my comments are well thought-out, Charlotte. It is you whom I find throwing out any old naive concept. Without considering all of the repercussions of such concepts in reality.
All decent people wish to see everyone warm and comfortable. But hauling them off to a lock-up is not the way to do it. You have a fantasy idea of what locked mental hospitals must be like -- you seem to think they are the Hilton. And that the "hidden" cures for Schizophrenia will be available there (what cures?). Done any reading in the reality of "mental asylums" through the ages? Many of those places descended into horror, not unlike the shelter system has descended into something less than it was meant to be.
Do you deny the possibility of creating and maintaining humanely-run mental hospitals?
The history of mental hospitals and the treatment of the insane is ugly and fraught with error and lent weight to legal arguments for deinstitutionalization, but why let the past define the possible future?
What has changed that would guarantee humanely and honestly run mental hospitals, Bull? The same risks are there today.
We cannot even guarantee that seniors' care homes will be well and humanely operated.
while I agree with you in theory, in reality, Neeley fits the profile of the mentally ill, drug addicted homeless that commit murder by pushing innocent people off subway platforms. and by the way, do you live in NYC? do you depend on the subway? I do. If I saw Neeley on the subway, either impersonating the famous, or ranting to himself I would assess him as threat to my physical safety and well being and would act from there. I would run from the car if I could, but many NYC subway cars are locked, you can't pass through the cars, like the one he was on that fatal day. Otherwise I would move away from him if I could, been followed by the dangerous mentally ill when I've moved away. sometimes you gotta stand and deliver . I would clutch my screwdriver and scream curses at him to drive him away from me to protect myself. Neeley was looking for trouble when he went on the NYC subway begging. There are laws against begging and selling anything on the subway, the platforms, hallways, etc.
I hear you. This is a very sticky situation. I have already agreed that Neely was a criminal, looking at his past actions.
And yes, I have used public transit in various urban centres all of my life. I know it well. I am an average-sized woman, travelling alone, who has had to make quick decisions on what to do in several threatening situations,
So I know both sides of this issue. I sided with Daniel Penny, btw. It is just that we cannot allow the pendulum to swing from one extreme to the opposite extreme, and think we have solved this. There are those who will also manipulate the opposite extreme against the innocent and vulnerable.
But never in NYC? you really have no idea.
I think I share your cynicism about human nature, but I also think the risk of creating new and improved mental hospitals is worth taking, since the status quo is ruining our cities along with other stuff like stupid ideologically-driven and venal mismanagement.
Lock them up when they are a threat to themselves or others.
Well, there are places such as Canada with legislation for state euthanasia (called MAID) in which it is taken as a given that you are suicidal and a threat to yourself when you request this. Used to be that people like that were offered help. Now they are killed by the state. So the state becomes the threat. Think about that.
Actually, some of the people requesting state euthanasia have done so because their families guilted them into this, to get rid of the financial burdens of care. Or to collect an early inheritance. So these persons are not even suicidal, really.
This slippery slope is one reason I advocate the sale of the Sarcopod to individuals. You can have one in your garage and enter it whenever you feel the urge to kill yourself. For a reason I can't figure, the company that makes them says, "The Sarco is not and never will be for sale. The plans will be published open source or in The Peaceful Pill eHandbook. The final decision has not yet been made" (https://www.exitinternational.net/sarco/faqs/).
Giving others the power to decide who is or is not a candidate for euthanasia has always had this predictable outcome. Ethically, the problem lies in giving others the agency to do what one ought to do oneself. "Assisted suicide" is a sinister oxymoron for "homicide," justifiable or not.
The Sarcopods? Used to be that people who wanted to commit suicide just closed the garage doors and turned on the engine.
Evidently, the hypoxia provided by the Sarcopod is done with nitrogen, and one experiences a sort of euphoria before conking out. The garage carbon monoxide route provides a slow death, with much pain and suffering. I've also learned that today's cars produce less CO, so it would take twice as long to croak than if you sat in a garage inhaling the fumes from your '68 Mustang with the original engine.
Strange days, indeed, that have us discussing the problem of state-sponsored homicide ("assisted suicide" my ass).
I consider it mass state homicide, enacted by the state mercenaries who once called themselves doctors. They no longer deserve that title.
You could probably do just as well to find a murderous thug by looking at the ads in the back of one of those grimy magazines.
I'd say that's true in Canadiastan. I think the dickheads-that-be in Oregon have the same policy, or want it anyway--the "freedom" to be killed on demand.
Suicide is cowardly enough, but asking an MD to do it is the nadir of cowardice IMHO.
Oh, a number of the doctors here in Canadastan are quite keen. One of them, in BC, was doing a lot of media interviews a few years ago, boasting of her kill numbers. She was up to 400 at that point, since 2016. And she runs an abortion clinic on the side, invoicing every kill to government. Blows my mind. Apparently she is becoming elderly now, and uses a mobility scooter, but still insists on continuing her killing spree. Dr. Death.
I consider her a Psychopath. Persons of her sort in the medical profession must be in their glory.
Grisly and weird.
That reminds me of the original "Dr. Death," Jack Kevorkian. I seem to recall he had devised a mobile gas chamber that he would drive around and supply death on demand. He ended up in prison for 2nd-degree murder and served 8 years, and while inside he created some grisly, morbid paintings. He was a kind of "Birdman of Alcatraz" in that he was sentimentalized by supporters of homicide-on-demand.
That once-civilized humanity has come to this.....